Casual Talk with Mohanji at Datta Tapovan – part 1

Questions by Hein and Annette Adamson and Mohanji’s answers

at Datta Tapovan on 25th February, 2013

Mohanji at Datta Tapovan Feb 2013God

Q: Hello Mohanji, it’s absolute privilege to be here. Thank you for taking time to give us some clarity and answer our questions. First, what is god?

A: God is substratum. The energy out of which everything formed and eventually everything will dissolve. If you want to see god, you have to see the whole universe. Or, whatever you see in front of you is god. There is nothing apart from god, and everything eventially merges into god. God is not a form such as a human being, or any form that matter. But many forms represent god. Every form represents god. So if you would like to experience god, you have to experience yourself first, that is you are the universe. You are indeed a universe and you have the constitution of the whole universe, including seasons like spring, summer, the youth is spring, the middle is summer and the old is winter. Like that we are representing the whole universe. This is what we call the truth of existence where the whole cycle of creation is expressed through us. So if you start understanding yourself, deleting the emotions, deleting the microaspects of you, and start seeing the macro aspect of you, you will see that everyday life which you perceive outside of you is actually within you. If you understand that you understand the level at which god operates, which means all the activities, all the creation is within Him. And every creation has a duration. Nothing is permanent, everything has a validity, everything is like a projection, and everything is withdrawn when the show is over. The whole universe is a projection out of god. The god is substratum. God is material with which the universe is created. And when the material dissolves back, it dissolves back into god. There is nothing which is not god. God is everything.

Religion vs. spirituality

Q: What is the difference between religion and spirituality?

A: Religion actually started with man. Religion is part of man. So what is the religion of god, have you ever thought? God is the same, but perceptions are different. Each individual has an inherent individual constitution and it’s exclusive to himself or herself. In such a situation everybody cannot understand everybody. Everybody will not follow every guru. There will be preferences, there will be individual choices where people can appreciate certain path, certain god, certain religion. So religions are formed as part of the quest of man to find himself and then to find god. The question has been, “Who am I?” Si it took the person, the individual, the mankind in search of certain awareness and took them through such paths, and then eventually they became religions. There have been prophets, there have been saints who went beyond the box and identified certain aspects of themselves and then they formulated certain system, so that people can understand or appreciate themselves in whichever level, and then from there, they can understand god. So religion would be more or less like a pattern, particular agenda or particular method through which you can explore god or explore yourself. First explore yourself and explore god. Religion has various aspects. It caters to a person who is of intellectual nature, they wanted to know everything on the intellectual plane and only then they can understand god, or will accept god. Some people are emotional by nature, they want devotion as the means to reach god so this is catered as well. Some people like to serve people, they are good-hearted, and through service they find themselves and they find god. Every religion is a concoction of all these aspects. And then some of the people will explore further, they go beyond to the level, “Fine, I’ve done all these rituals, and I haven’t been quite satisfied. I should actually experience god.” These are the people who get filtered from the usual path of religions and they grow higher. That would be very few. Because people usually get stuck with rituals, and they feel that if they don’t do the rituals, or if they are away from the rituals, there is some problem.

DSC00561So man created religions. Man created the aspects of god in forms which they can understand or relate to. You cannot relate to something which is alien to you. If I give you food which you have never tasted before, you may taste it, but you may not appreciate it or you may not accept it. Likewise, every person has a constitution and according to the constitution only they can appreciate something. A person who has no inclination towards alcohol, even if you give the best alcohol, it is of no use for them. Likewise there are various types of religions so that various types of people are catered to. Some religions instill a lot of fear. Many times people today are bound by religions because of fear. That’s not the right path, because god should actually be the fearlessness. You should love god, not fear god. Fearing god is basically a kind of compulsive or degenerated kind of worship. Because if you love god and are god, you understand god. If you fear god, god is outside of you and something which you are afraid of. And that fear makes you work. That means you are a slave. That is anti-liberation. You cannot be liberated when you are a slave, because you accepted the slavery. If god is an entity which is kindness, which is love, and you be that and when you become one with that constitution of god, you merge with god, there is no you any more. This is the way towards the path of liberation. That means you and god are one, there is nothing to worship outside of you because you became the part of the constitution which is god, part of larger awareness which is god. So from limited awareness of limited entity, to the unlimited awareness of god, it’s a transition. As you transcend this, you actually feel god, you feel love, you feel the reality, the truth. So all the religions are based on one truth, but paths are different because they cater to different sets of people. I can never say something is good or something is bad, it’s relative. For some people something is suitable. Like some food is good for someone and is poison for another. It’s like that. We can’t say which religion is good or bad, but it’s created by man. This is part of exploration of man or the quest to know who he is and what god is. This is how all religions are formed and continue. And whatever is not adaptable to the changes of the situation because life changes all the time, dies off. Something which cannot endure time goes. Because all the philosophies are nice, because they have been given by people who are enlightened. These have been delivered by prophets or guides who have seen god. All these scriptures, various guiding books or guiding principles that we learn every day have been delivered by people of great depth, big people, big in the sense of spiritual level, highly enlightened. They have always tried to deliver whatever is good for mankind. But understand one thing. They have all been addressing a particular set of people who were their contemporaries. So they used the kind of language, they used the kind of ideas or things that they can understand and probably kept rules and regulations which are suitable for their community, or that particular society which they were moving in. Adaptability is required as the time grows. You have to adapt to new situations, new set of people, evolve the set of people, and bring them up higher. Often what happens is interpretations become a problem. Coming generations have to interpret what the predecessors have said, and cater to the new set of people. But what happens is the person who interprets may not be of the level of the enlightenment of the creator, the one who created this first. So distortions happen in religion. When distortions happen to the message, calamities happen. What is originally understood, when it is delivered becomes another subject. That can create alienation, that can create anarchy, this is a problem. Everyone needs to explore themselves individually, not to follow like one cow follows another. That is not a good idea because you are closing your mind. Some people say, “My guru is the best guru, everyone else is bad.” This is not true. Everyone has their guru. Everyone has their god, their religion. Everything is good for them, it may not be good for us, but it’s ok because there are seven billion people in the world, seven billion unique combinations. When we have all these people and all these constitutions to work with, every religion should be adaptable. Because you cannot give one medicine for all the diseases. A general tonic cannot cure, it can probably keep you well. So you have to find your concoction that cures you. This is an individual responsibility. We always miss this because we follow the crowd.
Mohanji quote - The light that you have been searching for
Heaven and Hell

Q: Could you talk to us a little about heaven and hell, and where heaven is and where hell is?
A: As far as human beings are concerned, both are states of existence. Whatever contracts your mind, whatever makes you negative, whatever makes you restricted or lower, in the lower level of awareness, is hell. Lack of awareness is hell. The shift in consciousness where you are tapping into a higher awareness, where you are able to see in 360 degrees, this is heaven. These are two states of human existence. Heaven is not apart from you, nor hell is apart from you. This is your choice. You can be in heaven or in hell, it depends on how you operate. If you operate with your limited mind, which has ego, which has anger, jealousy, frustrations, then you are operating in hell. If you are operating in the higher which is kindness, love, compassion, this is heaven. So what happens is, even if you are suffering or going through pains, encountering obstacles, etc… you will not be affected, because your plane of operation is kindness, love, compassion. So heaven and hell are aspects of you.
If you look at the whole universe setup, there are places like Earth is one of the gross planes where you have a body, mind, intellect to express and experience. But there are places where you are not created through elements, or an entity is not represented through elements. In such a situation you can say this is more of a heavenly operation because the pains and tears-and-wears of our existence does not happen there. So this is another aspect of the thinking. But why don’t we go there? Because all our desires are based on earth. How can you go? This is why. It’s not because it is not accessible to you. It is provided, but your desires are related to earth. People want to fall in love, get married, have children and everything here. So you have to come to this plane for that! But if it’s the other way round, you are already connected to the higher plane where you don’t really have to care about your body, you have no desires related to earth, then in that case you will go there. That is a perpetual heavenly state, where you have zero desires, and you are perpetually in a bliss state. When desires are not there, bliss always settles in. Desires make us do things which we may probably not want to do. There are permutations and combinations, you can analyse an individual with lots of desires, fears, anger, jealousy and such lower qualities, and a set of people who have no desires, whom we call the saints and sadhus. They can access anything they like, but they don’t need anything. This is a super state of richness. It’s not the money that you have, it’s a state in which you are operating. You have everything, but you don’t need anything. You are fine the way you are. This is power, real power.
So heaven and hell are states which you can create and you can uncreate. It’s not a place where you are put, like an old-age home, ha, ha, like, you go there and sit. Then what next? Nothing, just sit. That can’t be heaven! Ha, ha, you have no utility. Merging completely with Father, the highest consciousness, is bliss because as an identity, as an entity you do not exist. But you can choose to be coming back as well, and still be in bliss, no problem. Because if you convert you operating level only on unconditional love, where desires are minimal, and also you would like to serve people, you would like to experience the existence through service or being good to people, wanting to help people, and expressing only at that level, that time, you are fine, you are in heaven already here, while existing. This can also be called liberated existence, where you are existing without attachments, without desires. And then when you leave the body, you will automatically reach there because you are going from the plane of detachment and you are arriving at the plane of detachment. So when the question comes, ”Would you like to go back?” You may say, ”No. I’m fine.” So you already graduated to a different plane. This is the way to evolve. Just like an animal, born through human’s birth to the higher, like that we can transform ourselves to a higher plane by reducing the desires, reducing clutter, being simple, and then when we leave the body, we leave the body in peace. We leave the body with absolute awareness. That means we exit through the place where we came from, through the top of the head at will. Not through the mouth when the time comes to go. So we can bring the soul back to the top of the head and exit. Then you may choose not to come back. You may say, ”I’m fine. This is what I wanted to experience on earth, thank you very much, I’m grateful, I’m going.

Mohanji quote - You can be in heaven and hell it depends onQ: Won’t a person shift then to laziness or restlessness?

A: Once you leave like that it will not happen. Laziness and restlessness are related to the earth plane because you have dualities to play with. Once you are in perpetual state where the awareness is in 360 degrees, it’s total, there cannot be any restlessness possible. Because you are in a perpetual state of bliss. In that state it is very difficult to have restlessness or anxiety or fear. Fears are always happening in the lower mind level. It cannot happen in the higher intellect level or higher awareness level.

Q: And when one has an intention to leave all desires, even that’s a desire, isn’t it?

A: It’s a desire, but it is a better desire than having a desire of possessions, relationships, ego-related stuff. But leaving desires is probably a crude way of thinking because you cannot actually leave anything. You can go through it and overcome it. That means, you have a desire for an icecream. By looking at the picture of an icecream, that desire will not go away. You have to experience it. So desires do not just vanish. You can suppress them, but that is not solving the problem. Suppression is always postponement. The more you suppress, the more births you will take. Because they all come out in silence. Just like fears, whatever fears you suppress, they come out when the mind is silent. That is why some people hate meditation. Because they bring back all their fears which have been lying supressed, and not only fears, all emotions, all various feelings which have been supressed, come out when the silence settles in. So before the silence actually settles in, you have to eradicate all this 🙂 How do you eradicate? Observe them, leave them. Likewise you cannot through desires out. You have to experience them, at least in the modest way. Experiencing them in a modest way means be fully aware what you are doing. Be in the present. Enjoy every moment. In that way, if you experience, it will not come back. You don’t have to do it again. Otherwise, you are unconscious about the activity, it gets repeated. That becomes a habit. E.g. smoking a cigarette, be with the cigarette till the last part. Then you feel, ”I have done. I have had enough.” Next cigarette will not happen at least. Otherwise you can see people smoking and smoking. Why? Because all this activity way unconscious. Your mind has not actually registered nor enjoyed. Leaving desires is more easily said than done. You have to go through the experience, but experience it with awareness so that it doesn’t come back, you are happy with the result, then it goes away from your system. That is the way it should be.

Mohanji quote - Give back to mother EarthQ: And if one wants to be desireless, and becomes apathetic and doesn’t want to do anything, just sits and becomes useless?

A: Usually what happens is when desires are replaced with love, love is existing always, but it is not expressing because of the desires which are overloaded. So when desires are reduced, love starts expressing. Usually the thought would be, ”I would like to be away from this mess.” This is ok, but understand one thing. As long as you are using this platform called Earth, to experience whatever you are experiencing or expressing, you may have to pay the dues. You cannot check out of the hotel without paying the bills. So you have to impart your knowledge, or impart your kindness in some way. This is what we call service. This is why all religions say you should serve people, serve animals, serve birds, serve environment. Because then whatever you have attained, stays. Otherwise you will have to come back to pay the rent later. That could be painful, that means another birth. Better not to take that.

Q: Thank you… if god is the beginning and god is the end, what’s the point of everything in the middle?

A: If you are the only person existing in this world, how will you know yourself? If god is substratum, everything has come out of god, but how does god understand himself? As an expression, there needs to be duality. There needs to be relativity. Through relativity you can understand, that which is not this is that. That way, start with duality and come back to unity. This is a perfect awareness of what god is. In this context, if you continue to analyse yourself, you will understand that more, ”I’ve always be in search of something which is already within me. I’m not apart from that.” But how does that understanding come? When the quest is reaching the level of snag, let’s say, ”What is this? I’m not getting it?” That’s the time when you look inside. You have always been looking outside, we have visited many temples, places thinking god is there. Of course, there is the power there. But then again you come back to yourself and ask, ”Did I see god? Did I actually touch him? Is this god outside of me whom I can actually touch?” If you do not have duality, if you do not have relativity, if you do not have a relationship, this is just a mystery. I cannot understand myself alone, I need to understand myself in context in relation to, or in the realm of relativity. That is why god has intelligently created duality. But it also gives room to transcend duality and come back to unity. And when you come back to unity, you are not missing anything or you are getting everything fulfilled. And even in duality in perfect awareness, you can actually enjoy the unity which is god, ”I am that” coming back to you, there is nothing apart from you. That is why every person has the same potential. Every person is the same, all are expressions of god. Every drop of the mother ocean has the same particulars as mother ocean. Nobody is higher, nobody is lower, the only thing is that constitution is different so the awareness is different. You do not know, simple. That is why gurus come as road signs and say this is the way. Again, they do not insist you should go that way. They say you can travel this way, and you can reach your true self. And if the true self is identified, it will not be outside of you. It will be inside of you. Then you will see that all the things around you are within you. Everything is your expression, so you cannot kill or harm yourself, right? If something is an extension of you, you may feel disconnected, that will cease to exist. There is no disconnection. Everything is you. So god has created this beautiful system of duality so that creativity is possible, love is possible, expressions are possible, and through expressions elevation is possible. This is the most important thing. Through various things, I’m not that, this is not that, and through that finally evolve into the state where, ”I’m everything. I’m god. God is me. God is not outside of me.” To that full awareness. First is the awareness of the self, the petrol that runs the car, or the soul that runs the body, to the awareness that the soul is the child of the main god we are talking about, the god which is formless, omnipresent and energy with intelligence, with unlimited powers. We have the same. We do have. But we do not know how to use it because we are stuck with our limited consciousness. This is why.

DSC00569
Recorded and transcribed by Biljana Vozarevic

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2 comments on “Casual Talk with Mohanji at Datta Tapovan – part 1

  1. Pingback: Neobavezan razgovor sa Mohanđijem u Data Tapovanu – prvi deo | mohandji

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